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Author Topic: Sorting out some seedlings  (Read 663 times)
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splinter1804
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« on: January 16, 2017, 21:44:00 »

Hi everyone.

Yesterday I was feeling a bit industrious so I thought I'd start sorting out some of my seedlings for the new year and here are a few pic's of some that appealed to me.

All the best, Nev.

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jaga
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« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2017, 09:50:51 »

Hi all, Nev nice selections!. Number one looks to be a Guzzy?. 2,5&7 are my picks. What are the crosses?

John
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Kayleen C
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« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2017, 11:18:31 »

Yes 2,5,& 7 are my pick also.
The colouring is very different in #7
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« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2017, 02:13:47 »

Hi everyone.

John – Yes the first one is a “Guzzie”; I just threw in for good measure. It’s from Guz. sanguinea var. brevipedicellata seed which I bought “on-line” and planted about seven years ago. To say it was frustrating and a real “bitch” to grow would be an understatement, just so very, very, sloooooow. I had high hopes initially with about 80% germination and they grew slightly slower than Vriesea seedlings planted on the same day (which I was expecting), but when they reached about 40mm they just seemed to stop growing. I tried several mixes and various locations but it was the same story with all of them.

I gave a lot away to friends and they all had the same problem with them, we tried different mixes, grew them in pots, and mounted them on trees with all the same story, they just didn’t seem to want to make any roots no matter what we did. We fed them Seasol, Fish emulsion and various fertilisers all to no avail and no matter what we did they only ever made two or three roots. This is the first one to start colouring up ready to flower after seven years; I know one thing though, I won’t be growing any more Guzzie seed.

As for the Neo’s, well they were just a random few I took just because I had the camera

1   Guz. sanguinea var. brevipedicellata
2   Neo. ‘Gold Fever’ x ‘Lambert’s Pride’
3   Neo (‘Charm’ x ‘Cracker Jack’) x Self
4   Neo. ‘Orchid’ x ‘Barbarian’ (I think, without checking)
5   Neo.  ‘Barbarian’ x ‘Gold Fever’
6   Neo. ‘Thunderbird’ x ‘Lambert’s Pride’
7   Neo. 'Blackout’ x ‘Mister Odean'
8   Neo (carcharadon x concentrica) x ‘Kay Jay’ #014
9   Neo (carcharadon x concentrica) x ‘Kay Jay’ #009
10   Neo. ‘Bea Hanson’ x ‘Rosea Striata’ 

We almost had a trifecta; I went for 5, 7 and 9.

All the best, Nev
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jaga
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« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2017, 03:57:32 »

Bad news about those guzzies! Nev have to say some Vriesea / tills are very slow as well. I have one bigeneric cross between a till and vriesea that is soon to go in the bin. Been trying to grow it since 2008, still only 100mm high. Obviously not a good genetic match.
So my Fav is the number 7 pick.

John
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« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2017, 20:28:52 »

Hi everyone.

John - This pic and another of the same plant were the same pictures you commented on when I posted them on Face Book during a thread on Neo. 'Mister Odean' posted in the "Bromeliads Australia" group  by Rosie Proctor Kelly on 14 January

The two different pic's were to show the colour change in the plant when approaching flowering.

We must think alike, as my first choice is also this plant

Neo. 'Blackout x Mister Odean' about twelve months prior to flowering
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'Blackout x Mister Odean' a week or two before the first flowers were visible
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All the best, Nev.
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« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2017, 01:22:44 »

Yes Nev, excellent unique colour mix combined with leaf width, are you thinking of registering this one?

John.
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« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2017, 13:14:50 »

I think it is a winner. Love how the red splotches go a darker colour but it is also very different to many Neos.

Sorry, but I am getting over how so many look alike and also how many plants throw plain pups because they are not stable.
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« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2017, 20:18:09 »

Hi everyone.

John - I have thought about registration and many who have seen it have suggested the same, but I'm still waiting for another generation of pups to make sure it's stable before I go any further.

In the B.S.I. information about registration of bromeliad cultivars, the “General Instructions for the Registration of Bromeliad Cultivars” recommends that “Cultivars should be grown through several cycles of pupping and blooming to ensure that they are stable and reproduce consistently. Another reason for having the period of testing is so that you have more than one plant in existence. It would not be in the interests of Registration if there were only just the one plant and nothing to propagate asexually when this dies”.

Although I realise this recommendation cannot be policed, and is reliant on the grower’s honesty, it does make a lot of sense, and this is the path I choose to follow.

Another precaution I take is to give spare pups to two or three other trusted “brom. friends”; this acts as insurance in case anything happens to my plants and ensures the new cultivar isn’t lost and I can always get a pup back for my own collection.

Kayleen – Your mention of instability, “I am getting over how so many look alike and also how many plants throw plain pups because they are not stable”. This is the very reason the above B.C.R. recommendations were included in the advice for registering new cultivars, although it seems to me that unfortunately, not all growers follow this advice and in my opinion, this is part of the reason we have so many unstable plants in circulation. 

All the best, Nev.
   


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jaga
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« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2017, 21:34:28 »

Nev in general, my approach unless its a variegate is to wait for the first generation of pups and if they are fine and its a registration worthy plant it gets registered. Not to many growers can wait it out through 2-3 generations but I do admire and understand your point of view. Look forward to seeing the pups soon, better tickle it along a bit with some fert, your plant is now a production machine!.

-John
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« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2017, 21:44:30 »

Hi everyone.

John - I must say I have had second thoughts on several occasions about the amount of time taken to meet the recommendations of the B.C.R. regarding the production of successive generations of pups before registering new hybrids, especially when I know of some of the bigger growers and even “professionals”, registering plants on their first flowering and before they even have their first lot of pups.

Initially I thought the same way as you, particularly with variegated plants, as any variegated plants I’ve bred (and there have only been a few with the exception of “radial reds”) continue to change leaf markings every year a new pup is produced. Even variegated plants I have bought which are already registered often still produce a variation in the pups over different years and this is the main reason I’ve lost a lot of interest in variegated plants and no longer breed with them.

On the other hand, like you I thought non-variegated plants wouldn’t have the same problems but I’ve often observed that the first generation of pups is often superior to the original plant as well as often being a bit different in colour, shape and markings. It seems with my plants it’s the second generation of pups that seem to produce stability, although like all things, there are exceptions to the rule.

As an example, I have a mini/midi size plant I once bought from the sales table at our society which had the name of Neo. “Cheery Day”. It is a popular plant with many members now growing it; however each batch of pups (and it often produces two each time) are often slightly different to those from the previous year; in fact quite often the two new pups on the same plant are different to each other.

The first thing I did when I bought it was to check the name on the B.C.R. and I was disappointed to see it wasn’t registered, and wondered why. It’s a pleasing little plant which looks good and grows well and one that is very popular among other growers and always easy to sell, but no registered name!

It wasn’t until I started reading about the recommendations regarding the registering of new hybrids that I realised that the instability of this plant was more than likely the reason it was never registered. On the other hand, one or more of its variations may have been registered under a different name; I guess we’ll never know. As I said, this is an exception to the rule and generally speaking I have found with my own new (non-variegated) hybrids it’s the second generation of pups that seem to produce stability and from that point on things don’t seem to change.

Taking this into consideration, your approach “unless it’s a variegate is to wait for the first generation of pups and if they are fine and it’s a registration worthy plant it gets registered”, seems more acceptable than the “several cycles of pupping and blooming” recommended by the B.C.R. I think it’s this “long wait” which might be turning many growers away from registering their plants.

Below are some examples of the variations in plants of Neo “Cheery Day” (U.R.) [I later added U.R. to signify unregistered] 

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Many years ago an American called Professor Julius Sumner Miller hosted a TV show to explain physics to children called “Why is it so”; what does this have to do with growing bromeliads? Nothing; except I’ll ask the same question of the changes which occurred with another plant of “Cheery Day” (U.R.) below, “Why is it so”?

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This particular plant of Neo. “Cheery Day” (U.R.) had a pup which showed a lot of yellow spotting very similar to ‘Gold Fever’; in fact, initially I thought the name tags may somehow have been mixed up.

However, as the pup matured, the yellow spotting gradually faded with some toward the centre changing to white just prior to the plant flowering. This plant then produced a pup which once again has a lot of yellow spotting (at the lower part of the pic). What will happen this time, and what colours will we be left with when the plant matures this time? 

All the best, Nev.
 


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« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2017, 12:06:14 »

It certainly has some variation Nev. I can understand why it may not have been registered.

"it seems to me that unfortunately, not all growers follow this advice and in my opinion, this is part of the reason we have so many unstable plants in circulation."
It might change now with plants not being imported anymore. The race was always on to get plants selling to recoup costs especially if a few growers imported the same plant.
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« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2017, 19:53:40 »

Hi everyone -

Kayleen - That's a pretty interesting point you put forward about the restriction on imported brom's especially about different growers importing the same plants.

The thing is, I think these plants can still be imported as tissue cultured plants in flasks as they are now, just the same as orchids (please correct me if I'm wrong).

It doesn’t change anything much, except they don’t have to go through the vicious quarantine treatment and it just takes a bit longer before they reach the Australian market.

Once these plants have been grown on, they can be released under any name the importing nursery chooses to use. Even like now where they are grown on and released under a generic name to be flogged off at stores such as Bunnings, Big W, K-Mart etc. as well as markets.

This then opens the gate to another problem (which is already occurring) where people buy these generically named plants and give them their own “pet names”. In this case we now have hundreds of these same plants but with different individual names thereby adding to the already thousands of incorrectly named plants in circulation.

It seems a “Can of Worms” has been opened that can’t be closed again.

All the best, Nev.
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« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2017, 11:31:02 »

The thing is, I think these plants can still be imported as tissue cultured plants in flasks as they are now, just the same as orchids (please correct me if I'm wrong).

Probably can Nev but the grow out time will be much longer. Not as quick as over-fertilising a plant and using a screwdriver.
Not sure how good tissue culture broms are. Our club had a talk from a guy from a place up the Sunshine Coast a few years back. People who bought his plants had no luck growing them. These were experienced growers who had grown broms from seed for many years. I know there are a few around but don't know where they originated from.
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« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2017, 21:06:51 »

Hi everyone.

Kayleen - I think tissue cultured brom's are much the same as tissue cultured orchids in regards to quality. It all depends on who does them and how experienced they are. I know a few years back there were a few "back yarders" down this way having a go, but without a proper lab setup, it was very much hit and miss.

I've de-flasked many orchid seedlings but never any brom's; but I imagine the risky area would be the same and that is when you remove them from the flask and into pots and attempt to acclimatise them. This is the risky time just like when you bring brom’s from one climate to another and get them re-adjusted.

If you consider moving plantlets from inside a sterile flask (another climate) out into the big wide world with all its different bacteria and moulds as well  other threats, This is where many plants are lost by inexperienced growers.

Likewise the person doing the tissue culturing needs to know what they are doing also as I believe the growing medium formula needs to be altered at different times throughout the growth period and if this isn’t done, all sorts of weird things can happen with the growth.

All the best, Nev
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