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Author Topic: Seedling with 10 pups  (Read 815 times)
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jaga
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« on: September 27, 2016, 05:24:46 »

Hi all, here's one of our creations from 2009, just taken forever to grow but at last count has 10 pups, some nearly the size of the original seedling. The original seedling now 200 dia seems healthy enough and has never been damaged. The plant is quite average at best but maybe I should take off the biggest pup and see how that goes, what does everyone else think ?

Neo 'With Love' x 'GeeWiz'

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-John
« Last Edit: September 27, 2016, 05:27:46 by jaga » Logged
splinter1804
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« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2016, 09:16:26 »

Hi everyone.

John - Ten pups eh? Either you're pumping the "goodies" into it or the genes have had a real serious shake up caused by something. I'd take off the biggest pup and starve it and see how that goes.

A friend of mine accidentally overdosed his plants (Tillandsias) with Seasol. This was due to a malfunction of one of those hose attachments that premix the concentrate as it's coming through the hose and due to a blockage it was six times stronger than it should have been. The result was many plants produced multiple pups (I mean 10 or so, that much multiple) and he tracked it back to one of the natural things in the Seasol which is usually harmless but given in excess does this. I don't remember what the name of it was; completely over my head. Although they produced multiple pups they were deformed and only grew to about one quarter of the normal size and to my knowledge never flowered. The old saying is still true; if you stuff with Mother Nature she'll bite you on the bum!

I was once told by a nurseryman who had a brom nursery, that apart from screw-drivering a plant to increase pup production, you can also get multiple pups by putting a single prill of Osmocote inside all of the basal leaves and also three or four in the vase. I tried it on a few plants and the least I got was five on Ae. 'David Barry' and the most on Vr ospinae which had thirteen. I also got eight on Neo 'Noble Descent' and eight on Neo 'Red Waif' (mini).

All the best, Nev.
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splinter1804
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« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2016, 09:24:31 »

Hi again, sorry I forgot to comment on the radial red markings on the Neo 'With Love' x 'Gee Whiz' seedlings; this has obviously come from 'Rosea Striata' which was the pollen parent of Neo.'With Love'. It just shows how strong this gene for radial reds is in that plant and what a great parent it is to use if you want radial reds as it's reliable in passing on this trait to a good percentage of its progeny.

All the best, Nev.
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Kayleen C
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« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2016, 12:28:30 »

Worth the time to grow a couple of pups out John.
Nev I have done that fertiliser in the basal leaves but after I have taken the first pups off. Usually a few prills but I never put any in the cup.
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splinter1804
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« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2016, 23:49:51 »

Hi everyone - I forgot to mention a very important bit of information (above) about the use of Osmocote prills to induce multiple pups, and that is that this technique must be applied after the plant has flowered.

There was also a chap from the U.S. who posted on the old Garden Web Forums who said that he used a similar method to induce extra pups on Aechmea orlandianas, but his directions were a bit vague when he said he threw a "big hand full" of prills down the middle of the plant after he had removed the old inflorescence. (You may even remember this post John as you were posting about the same time).

I did try it on a couple of orlandiana Mothers but they just died without producing a single pup.

All the best, Nev.
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jaga
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« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2016, 08:11:09 »

Hi everyone, To start, out of this grex I got quite a few that were striated, images below shows one of them to compare, it flowered in 2015. All the seedlings were treated the same and there was no fertilizing as has been discussed above and the others did not have this issue with many pups. In some cases if a seedlings vase has been damaged it will send out maybe 2 pups but never had this many. The plant above has also taken a very long time to grow compared to the others in the grex so it certainly is puzzling

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I shall remove one pup out of curiosity and see if that one also starts pupping, my theory is its a genetic trait.

Nev the screw driver technic is quite a brutal approach, a good friend of mine drills a hole right through the same size as the vase base and gets very good results using a 'spade bit'.

Sorry the images are very poor but you get the idea

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A Alc plant he has drilled several times to end up going from one leaf variegated to all

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Regards John.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2016, 08:23:55 by jaga » Logged
Kayleen C
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« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2016, 13:32:39 »

John do you mean he has done the same plant a few times? What would be the benefit if the middle has already been drilled?
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jaga
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« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2016, 21:50:35 »

No Kayleen, He has done successive generations, from memory 3 to get from 1 leaf with variegation to what you see above, taken about 10 years.

John.
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Kayleen C
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« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2016, 14:17:44 »

Okay thanks.
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« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2016, 06:02:32 »

Hi all, found pups all fused together as one, so with some surgery cut apart a portion and cut into 2 plants as per below, 3 smaller pups had to be sacrificed.

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dipped the 2 plants cut wounds in sulphur and potted them.

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So we will see what transpires from this.

John.
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splinter1804
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« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2016, 06:54:12 »

Hi everyone.

John- I thought about the screw driver thing after Lisa mentioned it on one of the early forums some years ago now, but I don't remember if I tried it or not. I know I was going to try it and changed my mind at the last minute a couple of times so I don't think I did because if I had and it was successful I think I would have remembered. Have either you or Kayleen used this technique and what were the results?

A friend of mine worked on stabilizing Nidularium 'Miranda' over a period of ten years of selective propagation (without a screw driver),and eventually produced a very stable variegated plant which was registered as Nidularium ‘Miranda’, and named for the suburb of Sydney where my friend and her husband live.  After several more years of stability, she brought it to a meeting to show us, and when all the admiration and compliments had subsided,she pointed out a pup around the back of the plant, and guess what? it was a bloody NOVAR (see pic.)just when she thought she had stabilized a beautiful plant. This is why I've been turned off variegated plants, and although I like them, and do have some, I just can't be happy with their unreliability.

As for the plant you had to perform surgery on, I think it’s just one of those rare genetic deformities and suspect that some of the subsequent pups will probably be produced carrying the same deformity, however time may prove me wrong and we’ll just have to wait and see.

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All the best, Nev.
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jaga
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« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2016, 07:17:48 »

Nev, I think no body who has a collection of broms and has built up a knowledge would expect any to be totally stable even a lot of the patterned leafed neos send out sports which can also be classed as unstable so for your friend to be upset about one Nidularium 'Miranda' novaring to me is not a big deal. Also that plant is a wonderful plant and well worth the effort. I tried to find out when was a variegate considered stable? most suggested if half the pups were good.

Cheers John
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splinter1804
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« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2016, 23:19:03 »

 Hi everyone.

John - I don't know that my friend was upset as much as disappointed as she was pretty sure she had "cracked it" after several generations of ‘Miranda’ being stable. She has a large collection of variegated plants from several different genera (many of them species) which she continually  culled and selected only the best pups to keep the strain as pure as possible and any NOVAR culls would always go in the bin to prevent these "imposters" from escaping into general circulation. I guess that was her special challenge, but to me I'd rather use my time on other aspects of brom culture.

I agree with you, it is a wonderful plant and deserves a place in collections and I was fortunate to get a well coloured plant from one of her originally selected well coloured offsets which fortunately so far maintains its correct colouring, but it will still be a disappointment to me if/when it throws a NOVAR pup.

It was an interesting answer you got when asked when was a variegated plant considered to be stable. I had never thought about this before, and immediately went for the FCBS Glossary to check what is given there as a definition, and surprisingly, there isn’t one; so it appears that Uncle Derek and the other experts haven’t thought it important enough to put it in the glossary.

The older I get and the longer I grow bromeliads, the more I realise just how little I really understand about them; when I first started growing broms, any plant I saw, whether it be a plain colour or patterned in some way I just accepted that’s how it would always be with successive generations. However the more I think about, and look at even the most commonly grown plants, I see that sometimes there are colour and pattern variations in the foliage from generation to generation and I now realise how terribly naive I’ve been for accepting what I saw as being the “norm” instead of asking questions.

All the best, Nev.
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Kayleen C
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« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2016, 13:12:27 »

Nev I did use a screwdriver on one of my neos. I had it for about 6yrs and it had never pupped or flowered. I bought it of a woman up Cairns way. Don't know if that made the difference or not as I think a few of their broms from up there just keep growing like they do in some Asian countries.     LOL it produced I pup.
 I have been meaning to ask you how the Shell Dance seeds went?
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chefofthebush
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« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2016, 16:23:22 »

Hi Guys,

I think it is a little barbaric using an electric drill on a bromeliad.  But if it works, why not. I will NOT, however. start drilling my way through all my plants. I will wait until I am strong enough emotionally before doing that.

I have also had seedlings that tended to produce what looked like pups at a very early stage. Was it pups or perhaps polygamy in the seed, or even just seeds that germinated very close together.

Good post.

Conrad
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