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Author Topic: ID request  (Read 1223 times)
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Mike W
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« on: June 02, 2013, 06:53:45 »

Hi

I assume this is a Quesnelia, but not sure which one.  any ideas.  I had thought Q quesneliana, wbut that apparently has white margined floral bracts. so, maybe arvensis?  

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« Last Edit: June 02, 2013, 09:20:56 by Mike W » Logged
Mike W
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« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2013, 10:38:54 »

Well, I kept on looking at Quesnelia testudo, arvensis and quesneliana and decided I didn't have any of them.  SO I wondered if it was an Aechmea, and then Quesmea.  I think it is Quesmea Lymanii!
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Brod
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Aechmea lilacinantha


« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2013, 01:15:31 »

I'm going for Quesnelia quesneliana, the plant maybe has had a tough life and the smallness of the flower reflects that. I have a little clump that I didn't look after and the flower is similar in dimensions, other clumps that are looked after are more robust
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Mike W
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« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2013, 05:30:53 »

thanks Brod.  I saw the lady I got it from, and she now thought testudo. 

I would be interested in seeing your Q quesneliana.  The literature I have says that pplant has white margined floral bracts, and flowers barely exceeding the bracts.  All 3, testudo, quesneliana and arvensis seem to have obtuse floral bracts. 
In contrast, the Quesmea Lymanii has acute bracts like mine and flowers well exceeding the bracts. 
Mike
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paul_t23
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« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2013, 23:29:44 »

Hi Mike,

I don't know these plants and I can't help with the id directly.  Are the words "obtuse" and "acute" yours based on what you've seen in illustrations of the relevant bits?  If so, then fine, that would be quite a distinct difference.  

If they are words used by different authors without illustration though, I'd be very wary  Shocked  Shocked Shocked    I've stumbled through a few taxonomic descriptions and come unstuck with descriptions of things like acute and obtuse floral bracts, so I thought I'd share some war stories.

One basic problem is how rounded does "acute" get before it becomes "obtuse"?  And how pointed does "obtuse" get before it is "acute"?  One person's "acute" can easily be someone else's "obtuse" in that intermediate zone.  Or, maybe it becomes "acute" if it has a little point on the end, even if the rest of it is broadly rounded?  Or maybe not?  

Or maybe it is being described, or maybe even illustrated, as it appears in place on the inflo, or maybe it is being described or illustrated as it looks when it has been removed and rolled out flat?  Having a look at your pic, those floral bracts look acute-ish when in place on the flower, but considering those extensive edges rolled under the flower, I'd say they would look quite broadly obtuse if they were taken off and rolled out flat .................. but with a tiny little point  Roll Eyes

I actually find this sort of stuff fun, so I hope you don't mind me sharing it and I hope it might help with the id. rather than confusing it further!!

Cheers, Paul
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Mike W
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« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2013, 09:33:06 »

Interesting Paul, and I generally agree.  It is exceedingly hard sometimes with these descriptions.  More than once I have seen something described as having 3-5 spines, and you look at the illustration of that same plant in the sme book and it has seven!. 

In any case, I was looking at Smith and Downs and the illustration there.  I was quite surprised when I dissected the flower and found that the bract was indeed obtuse when rolled out.  but in the illustration of the trhee in Smith, all appeared obtuse in the illustration of the entire inflorescence.  of course there is no color in them, so cant see so well.   

I guess I need to wait and  study more - I am not sure what attributes Aechmea have that Quesnelia don't that I can look for.  Maybe best for me to study Aecmea distachii and see what that has and if there are any attributes in mine. 

Mike
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Kayleen C
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« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2013, 14:03:51 »

Quesnelia quesneliana
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Arvensis
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These are the flowers from mine. you can see the difference in colour.
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« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2013, 23:12:41 »

Hi Mike, excellent dissecting work!  Good luck with the investigation.

Sunshine, love those Quesnelias.
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Mike W
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« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2013, 06:12:37 »

Thanks much for the pics and lovely Quesnaelias.  nice to see the white margined bracts on the quesneliana.  Smith and Downs says both are rose colored bracts, so interesting to see the different color bracts on the two you have.  Some of the pics of arvensis I found have rose and others red like yours, like they say, the plants don't read well!
Mike
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« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2013, 11:06:26 »

Hey Sunshine_Qld...Are you sure your pics are labelled the right way round ? Your first one looks much more like an arvensis flower, and second more like quesneliana ?
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Mike W
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« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2013, 21:57:20 »

For what it is worth, Smith and Downs say
Arvensis infl is cyldrical , 6-12 cm long and 4-6 wide, floral bracts all rose
Quesneliana infl is cyl or ellipsoid, 13-20x 6-7 cm, flor bracts rose with white margins. 

they also talk of floral bracts in 6-10 ranks for arvensis, and 12 ranks for quesneliana.  Not sure what that means, any thoughts?
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« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2013, 22:53:25 »

Hi Mike,

When S&D are talking about ranks of floral bracts, I would assume (could be dangerous!) that they are using the same sort of definition as the one in the brom glossary in the information section on fcbs, which gives ranks = "Rows, as the arrangement of flowers on an inflorescence". 

If that's the case, then looking at the vertical inflo from the side, count up the number of horizontal rows of floral bracts.  Sunshine's second pic gives a good view from the side and I get around 9 on that.

Cheers, Paul
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Mike W
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« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2013, 01:34:04 »

Thanks Paul

I figure you are right, what threw me was the pictures.

I miswrote above, actually was in 12ranks for arvensis, and 6-10  ranks for quesneliana.  Yet their illustration seems to show more for quesneliana.  Mike
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« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2013, 03:14:14 »

Hi Mike

Maybe it's a hybrid like Lymanii though the floral bracts are very Quesnelia esp. quesneliana.

Sunshine, I find these species confusing and always need to refer to the literature. Maybe a swap of your names might be better? What do you think, Paul? There are a few species that have been around in Oz, no doubt from the Rio area, that have been variously named arvensis (often correctly, quesneliana (often incorrectly) and testudo (usually incorrectly) so confusion tends to reign. Luckily some of us have access to the original herbarium specimen digitals and drawings so we can often iron out the problem namings.

Cheers, Pedro
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« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2013, 05:55:00 »

Hi Pedro, Graeme, I agree, it looks like a swap of the names on Sunshine's pics would seem to fit the info discussed above.  Pedro, love your succinct summary of the state of confusion  Grin
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