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Author Topic: Posit......  (Read 1646 times)
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Lisa
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« on: October 23, 2010, 06:34:10 »

(Go ahead, look it up, I'll wait)   Cool

I submit to you that xAnamea Scorpio is not, in fact, an Anamea.  I've got no quarrel with the "Ana" part.  With that little crown there's clearly Ananas in there (I'm guessing A. comosus v. ananassoides-- aka A. nanus). 

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Where I can't get on board, however, is the "mea" half.  What possible Aechmea could create these foliage markings?

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I've never seen anything like that type of marking on any Aechmea (or Ananas), species or hybrid.  However, I see that sort of thing constantly in Neo hybrids, particularly ones with ampullacea, zonata, or allied species in the mix.  I'd even buy N. olens as a possible parent. 

Now look at the flower:
 
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Nothing Aechmea-like there either, but very Neo-like.  True, Ananas flowers are outwardly pretty similar to that, but the only Aechmea I can think of that would not significantly alter that might be something like Ae. drakeana, and that still doesn't explain the reddish spots on the leaves.

If anyone has a better theory, lay it on me.  Otherwise I think I'm going to start calling it XAnaregelia Scorpio.   Tongue
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splinter1804
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« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2010, 22:15:10 »

Hi Lisa,

It's certainly unusual and the flowers do look remarkably like Neo flowers. Are they pups growing out of the inflorescence at the rear in the first pic or are my eyes deceiving me.

Thanks for sharing.

All the best, Nev.
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Lisa
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« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2010, 01:26:21 »

Are they pups growing out of the inflorescence at the rear in the first pic or are my eyes deceiving me.

Yes they are, Nev.  Just like: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/20/Ananas_nanus-infl.jpg

I'm assuming that's one of its parents. 

As for the other one, I'm thinking maybe something like this:   http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2110/2538163685_89b6eae5cd.jpg
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« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2010, 03:56:26 »

Well Lisa, I posit that you may be correct.  Seems like a logical conclusion and I certainly don't have any better guesses (as that is all I would be able to do is guess).
-andy
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Kerry T.
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« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2010, 04:06:16 »

Lisa - I agree with Andy. That's a good strong argument backed up with keen observation, experience and knowledge. You've convinced me that an Aechmea is an unlikely parent, and a Neoregelia much more likely. I also grow this little bigeneric. I read it is a Hummel hybrid, with exact parents unknown.

So, what happens now? Does your submission remain a mere suggestion/opinion, albeit valid and plausible, and that's it? If a change in historical hybrid parentage is deemed appropriate, with subsequent reclassification to xAnagelia - by whom? Information given when submitting hybrids for registration is accepted as "the truth", but what if a strong case is made against that supposed, quoted parentage?  

What about our illustrious cultivar registrar? If lurking, Geoff, would you please explain what happens in a situation like this?

K  
« Last Edit: October 29, 2010, 06:37:38 by Kerry T. » Logged
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« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2010, 06:10:54 »

Well, if it is a Hummel plant that would explain the mystery/uncertainty.  I don't think it would take much of an argument to 'change' the accepted for this plant in that case (given the sound argument).
-andy
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Lisa
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« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2010, 07:10:59 »

Those are all good questions, Kerry.  I've been wondering myself how to go about challenging this.  Maybe I'll ask Geoff about it. 

You're right about Hummel, Andy.  He never gave the parentage of his hybrids, and he's not around to ask, so it comes down to conjecture and opinion.  Not wanting to give the parents I can understand (although IMHO it's kind of small-minded).  Deliberately falsifying a nothogenus, however, seems unnecessary and a bit odd.  I'd like to think it was an error, but Hummel made quite a few bigenerics (including at least one xAnaregelia), so I tend to think he knew his stuff.   Huh
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gonzer
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Gnarly dude!


« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2010, 14:50:41 »

Apologies for being a little off-topic but Ed Hummel's house/greenhouse was just a few streets over from me here at work. It'd be nice if any of descendents had any of his old papers.
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« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2010, 18:29:15 »

I agree that Lisa's reasons sound plausible but there is the other side of the equation. It is unwise to reclassify a bigeneric of unknown parentage without absolute proof that it is wrong--maybe when plant DNA analysis is perfected and mainstream we may be more definitive . We tend to visualise parentages according to what is in existence today--not considering clones of certain species or hybrids which may have disappeared from cultivation 30 + years ago. The Bromeliad Cultivar Register has lots of references to cultivar names where there is no known photo on record. So doubt remains as to exactly what pollen and seed parents Hummel used. Before Hummel became commercialised he did divulge a handful of parentages of his crosses---Aechmea Mini-cal for one.

On the other hand, breeders sometimes mis-identify parents or simply assume they made the intended cross--it's possible pollinating insects/birds got to the seed parent with foreign pollen before the breeder. That possible situation lends support to the case that  'Scorpio' is POSSIBLY an X Anagelia, assuming Hummel did not get his breeding records mixed up nor deliberately falsified the genera used. Interesting that Hummel did not list X Anamea 'Scorpio' in his 1962 catalogue but from 1979 onwards many bromeliad nurseries were selling it.
On the strength of Lisa's case I will add to Scorpio's BCR entry that it MAY be an X Anagelia.
Geoff Lawn, BSI Cultivar Registrar
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Lisa
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« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2010, 20:33:37 »

Thanks, Geoff.  Officially opening up the matter for question is good enough for me.  It's something that bugs me every time I look at it, but of course I can't actually "prove" anything.  And I stand corrected on the name--  xAnagelia, not xAnaregelia.

I'll certainly acknowledge that plants sometimes get pollinated by things other than what the breeder intentionally put on there, or that labels can inadvertantly be miswritten or switched, that seeds can migrate during the sowing process, etc.  We're only human, and generally don't work under strict laboratory conditions.  I've had several apparent "cuckoo's eggs" turn up in grexes myself, but I always figure that part of my job as a hybridizer is to look at the results with a critical eye.  If they don't add up, and particularly if they seem to point clearly at another possible explanation, then I'll make that adjustment (or at least leave it as a question mark) when I register the plant.  For example, according to my pollen tag, Neo. Pinstripe was supposed to be a xNeotanthus.  Umm..... don't think so. 

What I don't understand is how anyone who spends as much time scrutinizing traits and analyzing possible combinations as hybridizers do can just shrug their shoulders and assume that what the tag says is more valid than what their eyes and their gut tell them, but that's just me.   
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Kerry T.
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« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2010, 00:09:13 »

Yes, thanks Geoff. Welcome! Good to see your input, and that you will note the questionable pollen genus of Scorpio on the BCR. Have you been busy with many new cultivar registrations of late?

Re questioning, or not, names on labels: I share your frustration Lisa, but we are in the minority. I sense many bromfolks' annoyance when nit-picking a brom's (pronounced like "Tom's"  Roll Eyes) name, with sound background information as back up. Some are eager to absorb as much as possible, and contribute, whereas most don't want to know all that other stuff, and shy away from that scary word CHANGE. They would probably say that they have a life, suggesting we don't. Could be! Luckily, we have global forums such as this where we can nit-pick to our hearts' delight with like-minded friends.

K   
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« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2010, 03:57:45 »

Hi Lisa, hi Kerry,

You're not totally alone!  Let's go for accuracy all the time, and I reckon this might just be a classic case of why that should be.  X Anamea, hmm ....  if I used that in breeding, there might be a whole lot of genes locked away in there that might give me something with a pretty cool inflorescence on a nicely emergent stem.  However, if it is in fact X Anagelia, I suspect I could be waiting for that nicely emergent inflo for a very long time.

Using this example to make a more general point, if the value of a name is in its ability to convey information about a plant, then if the information a name conveys is wrong, I would humbly suggest that the name doesn't have much value at all and is in fact junk (pronounced like "JUNK").

Now, Paul .... get down off your soap box!
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Lisa
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« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2010, 22:17:11 »

Using this example to make a more general point, if the value of a name is in its ability to convey information about a plant, then if the information a name conveys is wrong, I would humbly suggest that the name doesn't have much value at all and is in fact junk (pronounced like "JUNK").

I spell it "junque" 'cuz I'm classy that way.   Kiss

Seriously, no argument there, although the flip side of that equation is that if you list the plant for sale or refer to it as xAnagelia when everybody else knows it as xAnamea, you're going to confuse some bromfolks (pronounced like comb strokes, gnome hoax or foam yolks), and they're not going to be able to find it on FCBS or the BCR, and then they're going to come onto the forums saying "What is this?  I've never heard of it, is it labeled wrong?  I thought this person was reputable."  etc. 

I haven't decided yet whether to change my tags, but in the meantime, Geoff has added a little caveat to the BCR description:  http://botu07.bio.uu.nl/bcg/bcr/index.php?genus=xANAMEA&id=9297#9297
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« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2010, 22:26:40 »

Hi everyone,

That's great Geoff, now it ties everything together so people can see the whole story.

Ain't technology just great ?  Roll Eyes

All the best, Nev.
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« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2010, 22:56:38 »

Hi Lisa, spot-on as always but hey, it looks like you have a gnome hoax over there as well!
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